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Christianity Doesn't Require a PERSONAL Devil
Fundies (Fundamentalists) claim that
There must be a personal Devil,
An actual supernatural person,
Evil as a person, not just a force.
A "fallen angel" aka Satan, Lucifer.
But even if there were no devil
Whispering in your ear to do wrong,
No Tempter tempting you,
There would still - still - be a tempter to resist,
I.e., yourself, "your own lust," as James 1.14 says.
The Devil is first represented as a serpent,
A talking snake in Eden's garden(Genesis 2-3).
That can be a hint that the Devil equals animality.
For Evolution teaches that mankind
Has arisen from the animals,
(I'm a Theistic Evolutionist/Christian).
So we all have the "inner animal" to deal with(resist).
(We are to exercise "dominion" over the animals(Genesis 1.28).)
This animal nature (our inheritance) can explain what
the Bible calls "the flesh," the "fallen nature."
The struggle("war") between the "spirit and the flesh"
Boils down to the logical competition between
the higher brain(uniquely human) and
the lower parts of the brain,
The parts we share with the animals,
ie,the fish brain(stem),the reptile brain,
The mammal brain,the primate brain.
The strongest evidence against a personal Devil is this:
+
Christ Himself said "there is NO TRUTH in him"(John 8.44).
Truth is synonymous with reality.
So "no truth" may mean "no reality,"
No reality to the Devil!
(as a person outside of us)!
Of course there is still evil,
sin to deal with thru Redemption,
Redemption by Christ.
PS:The Bible hints at the unity between Man and the animals.
For we read that "the natural man," man in nature,
is like "the beasts"(Ecclesiastes 3.18-19).
Yes, and Theistic Evolution tells us why:
Because God used the lower animals
as His means for bringing forth mankind!
Just as the adult originates from the toddler
who crawls around on all fours,
Man comes from four-footed beasts.
Mankind coming forth from "the primordial soup"
Is no worse than for a baby to come from
a tablespoon of sperm (and the egg).
PS:The Ark of the Covenant was between two cherubs.
This was inside "the Holies of Holies"(Hebrews 9.1-5).
The room within a room within a room(courtyard),
Which all made up the Tabernacle.
All those features were then carried over to the time
In which the temple replaced the Tent(Tabernacle).
But my point here is that each cherub
was a composite of 4 creatures:
An eagle,a bull, a lion and a man(Ezekiel 10.14)
I think it had the wings of an eagle,
The body of a bull,the claws of a lion,
But the cherub had a human face.
The idea is the unity of lifeforms,
The connectedness of the species.
In that sense the Bible,
The Holies of Holies in it,
Supports one premise of Evolution,
Namely common descent,common ancestry.
(I'm straying from the subject of the Devil.
I tend to do that(stray).
Please pardon my digression.)
PS:Let me add to my comment about the Devil
maybe representing man's animality(line 13).
In Paul the Apostle's commentary on the fall of Man(Genesis 3) in Romans 1.18-32, he mentions "creeping things"(1.23).
That would correspond to the serpent in Genesis 3.
But Paul enlarges upon that much.He touches on "birds,
fourfooted animals" because they were worshipped by early man.
The snake was worshipped, or at least obeyed.That Paul takes that and expands on it to include other animals, to me the point is that the serpent symbolizes animality in that larger sense.
What do you think? Leave a comment. Thanks.
PPS:The vision in Ezekiel 10.14 is a little different from the 4 cherubs in the actual temple(2 3-dimentional cherubs,plus 2 on the curtains add up to 4).But the vision is based on those 4 cherubs, i believe."Each one had 4 faces," (Ez 10.14). No, the cherubs in the temple didn't have 4 faces.Skip that part. Just go with the part about an eagle, a man, a lion making up the cherubs, OK?
There must be a personal Devil,
An actual supernatural person,
Evil as a person, not just a force.
A "fallen angel" aka Satan, Lucifer.
But even if there were no devil
Whispering in your ear to do wrong,
No Tempter tempting you,
There would still - still - be a tempter to resist,
I.e., yourself, "your own lust," as James 1.14 says.
The Devil is first represented as a serpent,
A talking snake in Eden's garden(Genesis 2-3).
That can be a hint that the Devil equals animality.
For Evolution teaches that mankind
Has arisen from the animals,
(I'm a Theistic Evolutionist/Christian).
So we all have the "inner animal" to deal with(resist).
(We are to exercise "dominion" over the animals(Genesis 1.28).)
This animal nature (our inheritance) can explain what
the Bible calls "the flesh," the "fallen nature."
The struggle("war") between the "spirit and the flesh"
Boils down to the logical competition between
the higher brain(uniquely human) and
the lower parts of the brain,
The parts we share with the animals,
ie,the fish brain(stem),the reptile brain,
The mammal brain,the primate brain.
The strongest evidence against a personal Devil is this:
+
Christ Himself said "there is NO TRUTH in him"(John 8.44).
Truth is synonymous with reality.
So "no truth" may mean "no reality,"
No reality to the Devil!
(as a person outside of us)!
Of course there is still evil,
sin to deal with thru Redemption,
Redemption by Christ.
PS:The Bible hints at the unity between Man and the animals.
For we read that "the natural man," man in nature,
is like "the beasts"(Ecclesiastes 3.18-19).
Yes, and Theistic Evolution tells us why:
Because God used the lower animals
as His means for bringing forth mankind!
Just as the adult originates from the toddler
who crawls around on all fours,
Man comes from four-footed beasts.
Mankind coming forth from "the primordial soup"
Is no worse than for a baby to come from
a tablespoon of sperm (and the egg).
PS:The Ark of the Covenant was between two cherubs.
This was inside "the Holies of Holies"(Hebrews 9.1-5).
The room within a room within a room(courtyard),
Which all made up the Tabernacle.
All those features were then carried over to the time
In which the temple replaced the Tent(Tabernacle).
But my point here is that each cherub
was a composite of 4 creatures:
An eagle,a bull, a lion and a man(Ezekiel 10.14)
I think it had the wings of an eagle,
The body of a bull,the claws of a lion,
But the cherub had a human face.
The idea is the unity of lifeforms,
The connectedness of the species.
In that sense the Bible,
The Holies of Holies in it,
Supports one premise of Evolution,
Namely common descent,common ancestry.
(I'm straying from the subject of the Devil.
I tend to do that(stray).
Please pardon my digression.)
PS:Let me add to my comment about the Devil
maybe representing man's animality(line 13).
In Paul the Apostle's commentary on the fall of Man(Genesis 3) in Romans 1.18-32, he mentions "creeping things"(1.23).
That would correspond to the serpent in Genesis 3.
But Paul enlarges upon that much.He touches on "birds,
fourfooted animals" because they were worshipped by early man.
The snake was worshipped, or at least obeyed.That Paul takes that and expands on it to include other animals, to me the point is that the serpent symbolizes animality in that larger sense.
What do you think? Leave a comment. Thanks.
PPS:The vision in Ezekiel 10.14 is a little different from the 4 cherubs in the actual temple(2 3-dimentional cherubs,plus 2 on the curtains add up to 4).But the vision is based on those 4 cherubs, i believe."Each one had 4 faces," (Ez 10.14). No, the cherubs in the temple didn't have 4 faces.Skip that part. Just go with the part about an eagle, a man, a lion making up the cherubs, OK?
Published 2nd Aug 2014
| Edited 28th Aug 2014
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2nd Aug 2014 8:30pm
Beg to differ on the interpretation the Devil does not exist - I thought the words of John 4 v 8 to be corollary to the description of the Devil as "the Father of Lies". Didn't Jesus fight temptation from the Devil after he was baptised? Aren't the Devil and demons evil personified?
8th Aug 2014 1:28am
Thanks for your input.I'm not denying the need to fight temptation.Or that Christ fought it.Christ seems to go out of his way when He says, "NO truth in him" for lying commonly involves mixing a little truth with a little (or a lot) falsehood. So WHY does Christ do that??!! EVERY lie (ok, maybe only 90%) contains SOME truth. So why does Christ say NO truth at all in the Devil.You see what i mean? He seems to be sneaking in another point.It may be that He wanted to reveal the nonreality to a personal Devil, but couldn't do so. For the time was not right. It has to wait til the Second Coming. Which, by the way, I'm expecting NEXT YEAR, 2015. The "sign" that the Second Coming is about to occur - what is that sign? It is nothing less than the Russian Attack on America! When THAT happens, you can believe Christ is on the way.
You brought up a good point, the Devil as "the father of lies." As if nobody would think to tell a lie if it weren't for the Devil whispering that idea in their ear. Well, you know as well as I do that lying doesn't need the Devil. Little kids start telling little lies as soon as, what, 3 or 4? Let me be blunt:Kids would tell lies even if the Devil (as a person) didn't exist. So he isn't "the father of [all] lies," human nature is. So the only way you can still have the Devil at that father is if you define him as the bad side of that human nature.Which means he isn't a "person" so much as..something less. Lastly, your last question was,"Aren't the devil and demons evil personified?" Thanks for bringing up the subject of demons. I believe in literal demons as persons.
Did you know that the original definition of demons, according to the Greeks, was HUMAN spirits, ie, ghosts. Not fallen angels. Actually, angels are nothing more than ("glorified") human beings after death(like adults are nothing more than grown up children). So you actually could call demons "fallen angels" as long as you think of them as "falling" before they can graduate to angel status.Demons are post-human spirits that never made it to angel status.Angels are what they WOULD have become, had they not fallen(while living on Earth as humans).That's my guess, anyway.
You brought up a good point, the Devil as "the father of lies." As if nobody would think to tell a lie if it weren't for the Devil whispering that idea in their ear. Well, you know as well as I do that lying doesn't need the Devil. Little kids start telling little lies as soon as, what, 3 or 4? Let me be blunt:Kids would tell lies even if the Devil (as a person) didn't exist. So he isn't "the father of [all] lies," human nature is. So the only way you can still have the Devil at that father is if you define him as the bad side of that human nature.Which means he isn't a "person" so much as..something less. Lastly, your last question was,"Aren't the devil and demons evil personified?" Thanks for bringing up the subject of demons. I believe in literal demons as persons.
Did you know that the original definition of demons, according to the Greeks, was HUMAN spirits, ie, ghosts. Not fallen angels. Actually, angels are nothing more than ("glorified") human beings after death(like adults are nothing more than grown up children). So you actually could call demons "fallen angels" as long as you think of them as "falling" before they can graduate to angel status.Demons are post-human spirits that never made it to angel status.Angels are what they WOULD have become, had they not fallen(while living on Earth as humans).That's my guess, anyway.
22nd Aug 2014 2:27pm
Interesting concept you got here Joe regarding the devil and your theory of evolution. What made you think that Russia is going to attack America and why are you so sure that it's going to happen in 2015? Are you some kind of modern Nostradamus?
@EngrVV
@EngrVV
25th Aug 2014 9:18pm
Am i a modern Nostradamus? What a nice bit of flattery.You're very kind. I consider Nostradamus a real prophet.He got Hitler's name and Napolean's almost letter for letter. Britain would rule the seas for 300 years, he said...Anyway, no, I have no visions, dreams from God or anybody else.But i am a Christian who believes in the truth of Bible prophecy (but not some other things in the Bible).
This "Fundie" idea that the Bible has to be perfect or else it's worthless, I say no, it doesn't. If you have a car and the window doesn't work, do you dump it? No,of course not. Ditto with the Bible."All scripture..is profitable for doctrine,reproof,correction and instruction in righteousness"(2 Timothy 3.16). Notice it doesn't say it is inerrant, infallible. It can be "profitable for doctrine," etc WITHOUT being perfect."What made you think Russia is going to attack America?" Well, as a believer, I look forward to the Second Coming of Christ (which will mean World Peace, the end of (most) abortion, porn, same-sex, crime,etc)...So I studied Bible passages about the Second Coming.Where it happens, when, for what reasons. I found Christ intervenes because a dictator takes over the world and just terrorizes or kills loads of people. I wanted to know more. So i kept on going until I made a breakthru! I realized RUSSIA has got to be the one country which takes over the world. And the Second Coming is where Christ takes the word back from the Kremlin...It was in 1980 that I came to see that "the Rapture" makes sense if the departure of souls occurs right as the "sudden destruction" occurs (1 Thessalonians 4.17-5.3). And that sudden destruction would have to be nuclear attack by Russia. 1 Thess 4.17("We who are alive..shall be caught up together with [the dead in Christ]to meet the Lord in the air") is the Rapture. But just 4 verses later we read,"For when they say 'peace and safety[have come]' then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION will come upon them..they will not escape"(1 Thess 5.3)...We're in the "peace and safety [have come]" period. Our leaders have disarmed "now that the Soviet threat is gone or greatly reduced". The claim that "peace and safety" have come is "the big lie" that will be followed by our "perishing"(2nd Thess 2.10-11).
Here's the sequence:(1)We (the West) believe the lie (that Russia has changed for the better).So (2)we disarm way too much. When our arsenal gets below a certain threshold, that's when (3)the Kremlin will press the nuclear button. Our threat to retaliate will no longer deter Russian attack. For our retaliatory arsenal will be so small that Russian ABMs will be able to shoot it down! Poetic Engineer, do you realize that we have already gone from 39 boomer submarines down to just 14 subs?! That 14 is really just 12, because our set-up is 4,4,4. 4 subs are in port. 4 are on position at sea.And 4 are going out to relieve them(or coming back after being relieved.) So the additional 2 are in mothballs, so to speak...Now why do i say 2015 is the year? Well, part of the reason is the SEQUESTRATION.Our military is being forced to bear the brunt of the budget cutting.A 10% cut each year, for 3 or 4 years? Anyway, suppose we run out of things to cut in the category of conventional weapons.That means our leaders will be "forced" to turn to our nuclear arsenal. Reducing 4,4,4 down to 3,3,3 subs may seem harmless enough - except for the fact that we are dealing with RUSSIA. Going from 12 subs down to just 9, means just 6 subs will be at sea. (The 3 in port don't count. For they are sure to get destroyed when our ports get bombed.) Now, 6 subs equal 6x167 warheads, or 1002 warheads.The trouble is that the Russian ABM system is equal to the task of intercepting 1200 to 1300 warheads. We will have fewer than russia can shoot down! Do you see the gravity of the situation?
This "Fundie" idea that the Bible has to be perfect or else it's worthless, I say no, it doesn't. If you have a car and the window doesn't work, do you dump it? No,of course not. Ditto with the Bible."All scripture..is profitable for doctrine,reproof,correction and instruction in righteousness"(2 Timothy 3.16). Notice it doesn't say it is inerrant, infallible. It can be "profitable for doctrine," etc WITHOUT being perfect."What made you think Russia is going to attack America?" Well, as a believer, I look forward to the Second Coming of Christ (which will mean World Peace, the end of (most) abortion, porn, same-sex, crime,etc)...So I studied Bible passages about the Second Coming.Where it happens, when, for what reasons. I found Christ intervenes because a dictator takes over the world and just terrorizes or kills loads of people. I wanted to know more. So i kept on going until I made a breakthru! I realized RUSSIA has got to be the one country which takes over the world. And the Second Coming is where Christ takes the word back from the Kremlin...It was in 1980 that I came to see that "the Rapture" makes sense if the departure of souls occurs right as the "sudden destruction" occurs (1 Thessalonians 4.17-5.3). And that sudden destruction would have to be nuclear attack by Russia. 1 Thess 4.17("We who are alive..shall be caught up together with [the dead in Christ]to meet the Lord in the air") is the Rapture. But just 4 verses later we read,"For when they say 'peace and safety[have come]' then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION will come upon them..they will not escape"(1 Thess 5.3)...We're in the "peace and safety [have come]" period. Our leaders have disarmed "now that the Soviet threat is gone or greatly reduced". The claim that "peace and safety" have come is "the big lie" that will be followed by our "perishing"(2nd Thess 2.10-11).
Here's the sequence:(1)We (the West) believe the lie (that Russia has changed for the better).So (2)we disarm way too much. When our arsenal gets below a certain threshold, that's when (3)the Kremlin will press the nuclear button. Our threat to retaliate will no longer deter Russian attack. For our retaliatory arsenal will be so small that Russian ABMs will be able to shoot it down! Poetic Engineer, do you realize that we have already gone from 39 boomer submarines down to just 14 subs?! That 14 is really just 12, because our set-up is 4,4,4. 4 subs are in port. 4 are on position at sea.And 4 are going out to relieve them(or coming back after being relieved.) So the additional 2 are in mothballs, so to speak...Now why do i say 2015 is the year? Well, part of the reason is the SEQUESTRATION.Our military is being forced to bear the brunt of the budget cutting.A 10% cut each year, for 3 or 4 years? Anyway, suppose we run out of things to cut in the category of conventional weapons.That means our leaders will be "forced" to turn to our nuclear arsenal. Reducing 4,4,4 down to 3,3,3 subs may seem harmless enough - except for the fact that we are dealing with RUSSIA. Going from 12 subs down to just 9, means just 6 subs will be at sea. (The 3 in port don't count. For they are sure to get destroyed when our ports get bombed.) Now, 6 subs equal 6x167 warheads, or 1002 warheads.The trouble is that the Russian ABM system is equal to the task of intercepting 1200 to 1300 warheads. We will have fewer than russia can shoot down! Do you see the gravity of the situation?
26th Aug 2014 2:54pm
You got some interesting points Joe, but the last time I checked most of your speculations are just that...mere speculations! Do you really believe USA will downsize when in fact manufacturing of weapons and other toys in the art of war is its main business?
27th Aug 2014 1:41am
No, my good man, they are not just speculations! A reduction from 39 subs down to just 12 is FACT. I wish the folks in DC were as smart as you. Yes, we should not be downsizing. Right you are. Let me be blunt: If we had kept our 39 subs (or new replacements) we would NOT have to worry about Russian attack. We didn't need to build them. We already had them. It would have been so simple to just KEEP them. Yet we couldn't even do something so simple! So we deserve (someof) what we are going to get. Devastation. Humanity learns but we learn the HARD WAY. Thru pain and suffering and loss. Mankind will be forever changed due to the nuclear attack on America in mid-2015. The date - I've been wrong since 1983. I thought it would come that early.But the disarming is evidence that we are closer than ever before. This country is NOT what it used to be, as far as our Nuclear Deterrent(arsenal) is concerned. Get that into your head, please.